Now, we talk to this Kenya runner, and we find out that he doesn't even think about how far he has to go, that what he's holding in mind, is how far he's been. Or, let's say, what he's holding in mind is what he's feeling in his body right now.

Doug:        Right.

David:        And, what's right around him right now. And, he's not thinking beyond a few steps beyond where he is.

Doug:        Right.

David:        I don't know, I'm making this up because I haven't modeled folks like that. Now, I absolutely guarantee you that if that first runner, who's thinking about the finish line all the time, if he starts thinking the way this Kenyan runner thinks, he's going to have a different experience. Not only is he going to have a different experience, but because we are systems and there's no such thing as changing one thing in a structure without having it affect the whole system, that by just making that one shift in his thinking, it will start affecting other thinking that he does, it'll probably affect how he breathes, how he moves. And, you know, it'll have all kinds of ramifications.

Doug:        Sure.

David:        So, I mean, the idea in modeling is not to give you the ability. The idea in modeling is to give you the structure that makes the ability possible. And, that's a huge difference.

Doug:        It is a huge difference, and you're also talking about modeling the ability, not the person.

David:        Right, exactly, yeah. You want to model the person? Forget it. I mean, that's a lifetime proposition...

Doug:        Right.

David:        ...that, ultimately, you will not succeed at.

Doug:        Right, gotcha. And, how do you use modeling, you were saying, in therapeutic context?

David:        Well, an approach to therapy, you know, it's my approach and I think it's the approach that we certainly took in the early days of NLP and I know it's still taught in places, is to take the approach that, OK, for me to know what to do with you, you know, to helping you change, I need to be able to do what you do. And, that's how we would know that we understood our client, is that we could do what they did. So, what we would routinely do, is sit down with a client and gather information, and as we're gathering information, what we are trying to do in our own experience, is reproduce what they do. So, if they're sitting there going, "Oh, you know, whenever I get to work, my boss starts talking to me in a certain way. You know, I feel defeated and then, I fall into this spiral." You know, what I'm going to be doing, is gathering the information I need, in order to step into that world of that client and have my own experience effected in the same way because once I can do it to me, then, not only do I understand the structure, but I can, then, start making changes in my own experience, to find out what do I need to change in this structure, in order to get the desired outcome.