David:        Well, some people did that. Some people were adept at doing that and some people were not adept at doing that. We all experimented with that through... and, you're absolutely right. As I said, it was a period... it was a very rich period where, you know, we, because we believed we could do anything, we were not constrained in what we tried and what we went after. And so, it was wonderful! I mean, it was a wonderful period! It was... my God, it was fantastic! You know, we felt completely free to try anything that occurred to us to try, to delve into anything that grabbed our attention and you know, I think the one thing that unified what we did, or I have to think about it further. I don't know if it's the one thing, but it's a thing that unified what we did, was that we were always after the underlying structure and that was the thing that I think set NLP apart, which was we operated out of this reality or this presupposition that whatever people did, whatever their experience was, whatever their behavior was, it was that it is a manifestation of, or an expression of some underlying structure that's operating in them.

And, that if we know what the structure is, we can alter that structure and either affect a change in ourselves or that person, or we can take on that structure, ourselves, and start manifesting those same kinds of abilities or experiences. And, that is, to me, is what makes... gives NLP whatever identity it has in the world. And, to me, without that, you don't have NLP, period.

Doug:        Without that implicit question?

David:        Yeah, without that, it's not NLP. It's just not NLP. You know, if it's not about structure, how structure gives rise to experience, then it's not NLP. You know, so, it gets confusing the people and people ask, "Well, Dave, what is NLP?" And, of course, and naturally, it's become associated with what I call the products of NLP, you know, all the wonderful techniques, and this and that, produced from discovering various structures and putting them in forums that give people access to those structures. So, you know, I think it's also true to say that that is, also, NLP, you know? But, for me, what NLP was, to begin with and what attraction it has for me, is that pursuit of the structure, the structures that give rise to our experiences and behaviors.

Doug:        If I could just ask you a specific example in modeling, if you were to... or, if I were, or someone were to try to model a golfer like Tiger Woods, or a sprinter, or marathon runner. We just had the New York City Marathon here in New York a couple days ago. Like, a marathon runner from Kenya. What would be the value of finding out, you know the structure? I mean, wouldn't you just need to learn how they swing their golf club? Wouldn't you need to find out how they train to run that far, that fast? I mean, if I find the belief systems of that Kenyan runner, I still don't think I could run 26 miles at five mile a minute pace. I mean, I can't run one mile at five mile a minute pace.

David:        Well, one thing, and this is a very good point and it's something that a lot of people get hung up with, when it comes to the whole issue of modeling, which is that modeling doesn't turn you into that other person. Modeling doesn't give you their body. Modeling doesn't give you their personal history. Modeling doesn't give you a lifetime of being who they are, operating with those structures and acquiring, you know, the thousands and thousands of little experiences that all weave together to support them in their ability. So, it is, I think, inappropriate, to say the least, to expect that any amount of modeling, any amount of putting yourself in touch with somebody's structure, is going to imbue you with their ability.

What modeling does, is it gives you the framework or the structure upon which to hang your own experiences. And so, the purpose, I think, or point of modeling... right now, we're talking about modeling ability, OK? It's a little different if we're talking about modeling in therapeutic change, but we're talking about modeling ability. What you want to get... what I think one wants to get out of modeling is that framework that will allow me to approach that sport, approach running in the same way that this person who's very successful at it, approaches it, in terms of their thinking, in terms of their strategies, in terms of their behaviors. You know, how do they approach it so that they do so well?

My approaching it... of course, the assumption is that if I approach it the way they do, I will, then, have similar kinds of results, in terms of my running, in the example that we're using. It's not going to give me his muscles.

Doug:        Right.