QUESTION
If you deepen the patient by bringing him in and out, how do you know how deep he went?

ERICKSON
You really have to question the patient to know, unless you have had enough experience, but they have the feeling they are awakening very nicely, when all of a sudden there is a definite change as they start back into the trance. Is that a fair statement, Doctor?

ANSWER
Yes, I think it's in line with what was said about beginning to hold back. I found myself getting ahead of you and holding back. The first time I went to 20, I didn't get nearly so deep as I did when you backed me up. Then I couldn't hold back at all.

ERICKSON
I think that is a very important statement. He couldn't hold back when I stopped and started counting up to 20 again.

QUESTION
Was that because he might be willing and, when he realized he might awaken, he knew subconsciously that it's a nice feeling and just automatically wanted to go back?

ERICKSON
There it is, the psychologic expectation that you'll continue to count backward. The subject is all set for it and, when you suddenly reverse the count and go forward again, there's a terrific pause in his thinking and in his feeling. He has got to get hold of something and here you are counting forward again, so he grabs onto that and goes deeper asleep.