David:         Yeah, you bet. But it was okay because they had their eyes closed and they didn't know I was reading to them. Or at least I flattered myself that they didn't know that. But yeah, initially, I sure did. And that was fine, you know, as a stage of learning, I think that's just fine. You know, ultimately, I think what I'd like to do in telling a metaphor is to have it be a conversation that I'm having with this person. That as I'm telling the story, you know, and they're looking at me - I'm talking now about telling them a metaphor when they're not in a formal trance - they're looking at me and, even though they're not speaking, they are still interacting with me. That's my experience; that I'm watching and paying attention to what's happening with them as I'm telling the story. And as they respond, they are, as in a conversation, letting me know what they're getting from what I'm saying, where I need to go in my story, what's working, what's not working, and so on. And that's what I really like, that's what I really like to do now.

Doug:         And just to be clear, when you say they're telling you, they're not telling you.

David:         They're not verbally telling me.

Doug:         Right.

David:         But, you know, I'm watching what's going on with their facial expressions, the tearing in their eyes, their breathing, their color, all of those subtle responses.

Doug:         So they're telling you other than consciously.

David:         Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right.

Doug:         So for a person who really wants to emulate Erickson at this point in time, when he's not around to have us sit in a room with him and tell us stories and have him be working on us kind of incessantly and subtly and covertly and that sort of thing, how would you suggest, besides reading J. Hailey's Uncommon Therapy, how would you suggest we go about that? For instance, you said when you were working with a client, you'd put them in trance and then tell them a story. How do you do that? How do you put them in trance?

David:         You get a watch fob... How do you put them in trance?

Doug:         Yeah, I mean, I know how I'd do it but how do you do it? Do you just say, "Close your eyes"?

David:         That's pretty good.

Doug:         Is tonality important to you?

David:         Well, in general, you grab their attention and then limit their foci of attention dramatically and in a way that is congruent with their own psychological needs. I think that is how you do it. I think, in a nutshell, that is what Erickson did. He would first grab their attention and then limit their attention in a way that was congruent with their psychological needs. So, for example, you know, the person who says, "You can't put me in a trance." Erickson would say, "You're right, I can't put you in a trance. I want you to stay as alert as you can possibly stay because anything I might say might start to put you into a trance. So you need to be extremely alert and pay attention to everything I say so that you don't go into a trance unless you want to."

So what has he just done? What's he doing there? He's not trying to go against this guy's psychological make-up. He's going, "Oh, this is somebody who needs to be in control. He needs to believe he's in control." And so, instead of trying to convince him, "Oh, its okay. You can give up your control," he goes ahead and uses that need for control as a basis for completely focusing his attention on something. Narrowing it down and narrowing it down until the rest of the world can go away. And, of course, he grabs his attention right from the get go by saying, "You're right. I can't put you into a trance."

Nobody asked me what you just asked me before (thank god). You know, my off the top of my head answer is just that, it's kind of those three, I would say it kind of parses out into those three things: Grabbing this person's attention, then focusing it and limiting it as much as possible (or continuing to focus it more and more or limiting it more and more) that's number two, and doing it through, you know, who this person is, psychologically.

Doug:         Okay.

David:         Wow!

Doug:         Give me another example. Hypnotize me. Now.

David:         Boy, oh, boy! Now if I was going to do that, you know, now just think about what you've just done; just think about what you've just done. You have put me on the spot on the phone. Here you are talking to me on the phone. There are other people who might be listening but they're muted. But, I'm not muted. You're not muted. But there is something going on right now. You know about putting people into trances. And then you put me on the spot wanting me to put you in a trance. And you already know all about that.

Doug:         Yes?

David:         Well, that's how I would start anyway.

Doug:         That's a good start. Keep going.

David:         Oh, come on. I have to say, I'm very red in the face right now. Nobody has ever asked me to put them in trance on the phone and I've never thought of doing that before.

Doug:         You've never put anybody in trance on the phone?

David:         Not intentionally.

Harlan:         He got me just now.

Doug:         Who's that? How are you doing? Glad you could join us. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Harlan Kilstein.

Harlan:         I've actually been listening for a long time and been absolutely fascinated. I didn't want to rush in. But ever since David just put me into trance--

David:         Oh, you silver tongued devil you.

Harlan:         Actually, I wasn't planning on getting on the call but this is the only chance I get to speak to David.

David:         Oh, I see, I'm that hard to get a hold of, huh?

Harlan:         You're that hard to get a hold of now. This has been absolutely fascinating. There are so many processes going on in your mind, simultaneously, how do you choose which approach? Trance, not trance, task, no task, story, no story?

David:         Well, I make an assessment about this person who's in front of me. So, for instance, I'm working with a client and they'll remind me of something and I'll start telling them some little story out of my own experience that they reminded me of and watch what happens. Do they go away into the story? Are they staring at me, eyes unblinking, going into the story? Or are they just waiting for me to finish so they can get back to what they want to talk about?

That's an example, if I see them getting lost in my story, I know this is somebody that - or I suspect anyway - this is somebody who would be very responsive to, at the very least, telling a metaphor and probably trance work as well. My preference, and this is a David preference, my preference is to give people tasks in the world. I was completely imprinted by my first experiences of an Ericksonian approach to therapy, imprinted to the whole notion of tasks, giving people things to do in the world. What I like about that is that it is in the real world where people live. Whatever changes they make are going to need to be operating in that real world that they come from. And so, if at all possible, I like to create reference experiences, experiences for people in their daily world that make a difference, that reorganizes their thinking or retune their experience.

Doug:         Would you give us an example of one that you did with someone?

David:         Let's see now, what would be a good example? All right. Well, this is one that actually got me in a whole lot of...oh, no, that one got me in a lot of trouble at the Ericksonian Conference. This other one didn't get me in trouble--

Harlan:         I'd rather hear the one that got you in trouble.

David:         It really did get me in hot water, I've got to tell you. Well, I'll tell you about it. But the easier one first. I had this guy came to me who had what's called a shy bladder. That's what he called it, anyway.

Doug:         He couldn't pee in public?

David:         He couldn't pee in public, right, so he'd go into public bathrooms and he couldn't pee in them. And, if anybody was in the room, that was it, there was no way he could do it. And so I had him drink a big glass of water and tell me about it and we talked about it. And then I had him drink another glass of water and we talked some more about it and I talked about some of my experiences. I had him drink about 4 big glasses of water and I said, "We need to go for a walk." And I took him nearby to a mall and we went into a public restroom.

By that time, of course, he really needed to take a leak. And he really needed to go into the public restroom and so I said, "Well, let's go." So we went into the public restroom and I hung over the urinal while he took a leak, you know. I mean, I was just staring down at him.

Doug:         Now, would that get you in trouble at the Ericksonion..?

David:         Oh, that one didn't. That one was okay. No, the one that got me in trouble was a woman who came - this is quite a while ago, a long time ago - who, in brief, she got cooties from her parents and her parents could spread cooties. She couldn't have these cooties on her so she had over a 100 pairs of gloves. She was very careful to wash and clean everything, her house was immaculate. Her parents were not allowed to come into the same city that she lived in... there were a lot of elements to this story. I'll cut through the middle part. But this is a client that both I and Robert Dilts worked with for almost two years and couldn't get anywhere with her.

And finally, what I did was, I knew where she lived and I actually broke into her house. Now here comes the disclaimer (I did this at the Erickson conference, too) nobody should do what I did. This was in the early days of NLP. I was in my twenties. I thought I could do anything and did. So I broke into her house. I knew she was out and I knew when she would be back. And so when she got home... oh, I also had sent her a phone message saying I had met with her parents, which I had, which meant that I was now cootieized. And so when she came home, I was sitting there in her house. She had no way to know where I had been in her house, what I had touched, or anything. It was so overwhelming to her, the thought of trying to clean her house, that she decided she just simply had to give it up. So she did. Now, you know, I don't recommend doing this.

Doug:         Well, it's also interesting that you worked with her for two years prior to that.

David:         Yeah.

Doug:         If that was the first thing you had done, I don't think it would have worked. I'm just guessing.

David:         No, we had tried, separately and together, everything we could think of to do.

Doug:         Right.

David:         And this was the only other thing that I could think of to do. Anyway, the Erickson folks absolutely went up in arms. I talked about this case at a panel I did on tasking with several other people. And people in the audience afterwards got so upset because it was unprofessional.

Doug:         Well, yeah.

David:         Oh, yeah, of course it was, of course it was. And I was explicit about that before I told the story and it didn't make any difference. There were letters written.

Doug:         Really?

David:         Oh, yeah. It was the only tape from the whole Erickson conference that they wouldn't sell.

Doug:         Speaking of taping, we're about at the end of our scheduled time. We can go longer if you're willing.